MEL HARRIES

Mel Harries.

12 year ADF veteran - discharged as officer in charge of Mental health & psychology (ARA). 

Mindset training - Principal psychologist + Newcastle Knights NRL team psychologist.

Giving us a quick glimpse in to her journey and passion for athletic performance ahead of her " Building resilience, confidence and emotional strength in young athletes" workshop at the Pirates on the 24th of April.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

This episode has been brought to you from the DGMS studios, home of Don't Get Me Started, Lethal and Money Live, and SurfTown. Found at Spotify, Amazon, Apple Music, and wherever you listen to your podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

G'day and welcome to People of the Pirates with LA. This is a feature of some of the amazing individuals we have around the Noosa Pirates Rugby League Club. Enjoy their stories. The opinions voiced on this podcast are our own and not the official position of the club or the league. And there is a mild language warning. Enjoy legends. Alright, ladies and gentlemen. Today we have the amazing Mel Harris on. Harris, do I say that the right way?

SPEAKER_00 0:55

You did pronounce it correctly. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Excellent, excellent. You are a resilience mindset coach, among other things, Mel. Do you want to give us a little bit of a rundown on your little background?

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Sure. I'm a registered psychologist by trade, and I started my career in the army. I was in uniform, deployed overseas a little bit, and really developed a love for teaching proactive psychological skills. So that's been a huge part of my practice. So I've been practicing for about 20 years now, had about 10 years between full-time and part-time in the army. And then I've got a small consulting business mindset training where I do a lot of work with workplaces, with sports teams around how to build psychological skills to cope with stress, because it doesn't matter so much what the type of stress is, like the kind of things we can do about it are quite similar.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Yeah, for sure. And look, not all stress is bad, is it? As long as you have the tools to cope.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

That's it. And if you want to really get into it, I mean, if we don't have enough stress, we don't perform very well. We need a certain amount so that we're motivated and energized and focused. And if you think about what happens in a footy game, if you're up by a hundred points, how sloppy does the play get?

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Bit of stress and pressure really helps people to perform at their best.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

I suppose inherently, if someone's not carrying a little bit of stress about a situation, it's probably, yeah, how much do they care? How important it is to them. Is that correct? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Just finished up. So I do 50% of my work is team-based, and then 50% is individual working with clients and probably half of my client-based professional athletes and working with one today about just the stress of being late for the appointment and what that meant about them as a person. And so often we've got these feelings because stuff in life is important to us, and it was really important to him that he showed respect and that he was seen as a professional in that space. And so he was stressed about being late. And so it's a good example of he cares enough to have an emotional response to it. So having it is helpful. It's what we do about it that counts.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

Yeah, it's certainly an admirable trait.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Yeah, that's it. I mean, we like people to be on time, that's for sure. But it's a really common thing where often you're prevented from being on time. And the amount of wasted energy where people freaking out in the car because of traffic when actually doesn't matter. Today, being five minutes late for a thing probably doesn't matter. And a big part of what I'm doing is working on the mindset or the headspace around how do you reframe it so that you can accept the reality of what's happening and still do what's required.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

And I would imagine, yeah, separating what's in your control and what's out of your control in a lot of ways. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We actually had a good conversation about how recognizing what's within your control doesn't mean driving faster. Like, yes, that's something you can control when you're running late, but actually there's a point of diminishing returns with that kind of strategy. So that breathing exercise we worked on, how'd you go with that one? Is like, yeah, I forgot. No kidding. Can you imagine what I'm gonna say to you right now? Some of the things that are actually really simple, people don't use because you're too stressed to remember.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Definitely. Interesting you touched on breath. Do you do a bit of breath practitioning or yeah, focus on power of the breath as far as emotion control and getting the best out of people?

SPEAKER_00 4:28

100%. Yeah. Not in like a deep kind of spiritual way, but in a very pragmatic when we feel stressed, it ramps up the body's fight or flight response. It's a physiological reaction. Kind of adrenaline cortisol into the blood system ramps everything up. And if we don't slow the breathing rate down, then that system will keep driving up. So if you slow the breathing rate down, slows the heart rate down, sends messages back to the brain that say stop freaking out. Like they don't say relax, like you're not relaxed after doing a piece of breath work. But if you want to manage how you're responding under stress, you've got to stop the body from escalating. And it's one of the things that in footy, it's used a lot, but it's not generalized. So I'll have a lot of guys see it on the TV, score a goal and they come together in their huddle and they're doing their breaths, and that's kind of the limit of it. They're not seeing where else they can be using that to help to center themselves while doing difficult things like in conflict with their partner or stuck in traffic or being interviewed on TV, going for a different job interview. There's so many places where that kind of strategy is so helpful. But if you don't practice it, you can't use it under high stress.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

Definitely. It's like anything. If you haven't got reps under the belt, you're not gonna be proficient at the art, are you?

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Yeah, that's it. The metaphor I often use is if you want to kick a field goal in the grand final, you have to practice beforehand. Don't do it for the first time under that level of pressure. Because if you're successful, it's because you're lucky, not because you've mastered it.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Definitely. And do you predominantly work with like adult athletes or do you do much with sort of youth athletes, pathway stuff?

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Yeah, it's a mix at the moment. So I'm the club aligned psychologist for the nights. So I see the professional players, but also in the past, we were able to see the pathways players and still have a small caseload of the pathways. And it's kind of like you get a name for yourself as a certain niche. And so I'm getting lots of referrals. So I'm in Newcastle, obviously, with the Knights, lots of referrals from different sports, like hockey, like netball. Spoke to a high diver once, like so I do see a range of ages, but it's similar challenges in the kinds of things that are chewing up the headspace.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

And that's, I don't know, from my understanding of psychology, and I'm by no means an expert, but we're all human. We all have the same challenges. Athletes have all got the same sort of pressures and benchmarks and things in life that are going on. So it it's a really universal thing, isn't it? It's something that we've all got we've all got feelings in a brain and pressures and things that we carry every day.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

And even though it's like an unusual environment, it's still a workplace. You've got people coming together to work as a team to execute an outcome. And even if it's not a paid role, the principles that help to keep us safe in a workplace are similar to what keeps us safe in a sporting context as well. Like having good psychological safety, that you trust the people that you're with can speak up without being ridiculed, that leaders care about you, that some of the things that help us to be healthy and well and perform well at work are just complete parallel to what can enhance a sports team's performance or really bring them undone.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

There's so many similarities between high-level sporting programs, effective business practices, running a cohesive home. There's they're all they all overlap, don't they?

SPEAKER_00 8:08

They really do, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Do you find is it tricky sometimes to separate the workmel from the not at work mell? Do you find that you're you're analyzing people or in social settings you're the line gets blurry at time, or you're pretty good at separating those?

SPEAKER_00 8:25

I used to say I was pretty good at separating them, but I actually had a date ask me the same thing a couple of nights ago. And it made me just stop and think about it. I'm like, no, I I think we're all thinking about each other. And he used the example of there was a girl over there who was dominating the conversation, making a fool of herself. Like, what would you think about her? And I'm like, everyone would be thinking about her, but the language that I use might be different to the language that you use. But then I started thinking about why he was asking a question like that and what did that mean about his family environment. I'm like, yeah, I am psychoanalyzing people, and I don't I should do that less. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

I think that's another time to switch off. It's an inherently human thing, like not that people probably have intentions to, but we're always everyone's always making assessments, judgments, yeah, you know, subconscious bias to situations and people and stuff, even if they're not aware of it necessarily.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

I think so too. Yeah. We just I think the language and the depth to which we do it probably changes given what we do for work.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Or kind of what our lived experiences are. That if you've grown up in a world where people are unpredictable and unsafe, the way that you think about it's quite different to someone who's grown up in a world where the people were loving unconditionally, which sounds amazing. I don't meet them in my therapy room, but yeah, the way we think about that kind of stuff and what we pick up on, I think varies a lot, but we're all thinking about it all the time.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Look, I I reflect back to my childhood and I my parents were fantastic. Like I we I grew up in a loving family, but it was chaotic. It was all over the place. And at one stage they ran a youth program for a while and we're always after different bits and pieces. So it was a it was a really unique childhood, but I wouldn't change anything, and I am very grateful that that there was love in the household. Hey, if we can do that for each other as human beings and accept each other for in a loving way without judgment, that's a pretty special place to start.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

100%. Yeah. Yeah. And I think in our adult relationships, that's still a pretty special thing, right? Unconditional, positive regard, not judging people, being curious, interested. Like I think there's just some basics that make everyone healthier and happier regardless of how old they are.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

And it's a dynamic, like you see it in footy teams all the time. You get people that'll have a personality clash with someone in their side, or they don't agree with what they do in a social setting and stuff, but it doesn't change how they turn up for each other as teammates. They might not socialise and be best mates outside of footy, but there's that being seen, being hurt, that acceptance of being in a team together. Hey.

unknown 11:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Pretty special when it works, hey.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

It's beautiful. I and look, that's one of the amazing things about team sport. And you you get to see it across a massive quorum of different people in different groups and individual athletes and team athletes and stuff too. So what a what an interesting, diverse work week it'd be. It'd be challenging.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Yeah, you're pulled in a lot of different directions, but it's it's great. Uh the sport psych stuff is just so interesting. And you really do get a real kind of insight into these very niche worlds.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Do you want to chat a little bit about your ADF career? Is that what led you to working with athletes? Do you think that sort of team camarader environment in the defense force?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Like it wasn't a straight line A to B, but I think what made a huge difference is like being embedded in big groups, male-dominated workforce under high levels of pressure. So I had the privilege of deploying as the battle group psych into East Timor. And then I was part of a small team in the Middle East and was the only site in Afghanistan for about three months and then back in Jabai for another two months. They were really formative experiences in that you had to stand on your own two feet and just get shit done. And the end state is about operational capability. And so being able to balance this idea of what the organization needs versus what the individual needs is quite a unique psychology role. Because usually, when you're sitting in counseling, the client is 100% the focus. But when you're overseas, it's bigger than them. And so being able to walk this line between being able to meet the needs of the client organization as well as the individual just yeah, it meant that you're doing a lot of different tasks, lots of training, lots of assessments, lots of counseling, skill development, down regulation, lots of screening to make sure that when people go home, that they've got the support that they need. You become a bit of a jack of all trades. And so that's something that has set me up in my career and is has been a real selling point when it comes to working in sport because you have to do that. You have to kind of go, what does a team need versus what does the individual need? Where does confidentiality sit around that? And just having that familiarity with men's mental health when you're working with rugby league has been hugely helpful. But it was actually a mate of mine, an army mate, that that got me the gig in the first place with the Knights. So Dr. Kate Bacher set up the EAP network for the NRL and just created this very proactive, well-resourced mental health support for the professional players. So they've got lots of different resources they can tap into. And she put me up to be the club aligned psychologist for the Knights, which has just been one of the most fun jobs that I've had over the years. Grateful for that.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

What an amazing opportunity. How long have you been doing the role with the Knights?

SPEAKER_00 13:57

I think five years now. Yeah. At least four, if not five years. And it's just it picks up steam. So it's similar with any organization. They send one or two people to you to sample, see what it's like, get some feedback. And it's gotten to the point where the guys are sharing my number between themselves and kind of self-referring when they need to, which really speaks to how far the stigma of mental health is reducing.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

That's awesome. That's so good to hear. And through that five years, been some pretty rough times at the Knights, too. Like the team's flying at the moment, which is awesome. It's so good to see Newcastle doing well in the NRL. It's just so good for the game and such passionate supporter base and region, really.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Oh, yeah. I mean, the town feels it that there's a bit it it impacts on morale when the knights are doing well. You like you can feel it in the town. It's just wild.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Do you find during the hard times was it a different level of workload? Were you talking to players more often? Was there more difficulties, or is it just the human experience whether things are going well on the footy field or not? Everyone's got their challenges at certain times?

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Yes. I think when doing well in life, it makes a lot of other things easier to cope with. So I go through phases of being busier and quieter. And it is a little bit dependent on what's happening on the scoreline, but it's not the only thing.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

And do you do are you doing stuff with the New South Wales Cup side and Jersey Flag and that sort of stuff? Or were predominantly the full-time squad and then a little bit of pathway stuff like you mentioned?

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Yeah, so there's been a restructure for the mental health support. So the provisions of the Club Alliance Psychologist are now limited to the professional players when previously it was anyone within the team. So years gone by was seeing at any level cup, flag pathways. It was quite a broad aperture to linking in, but now it's just restricted to the professional players. And the others still get access to EAP through teleshealth. So they still have access to mental health support, just not through me.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Do you find it's different if you've got someone on the phone as opposed to being in front of them?

SPEAKER_00 16:15

It depends on the demographic. So when people don't sit at a computer for work, they want a face-to-face appointment. And so for the footy guys, for anyone who works outside, anyone in trades, people prefer face-to-face. But if you're someone who works for a council in an office role, doing it on Zoom or Teams is more appetizing. But what the research says is it doesn't matter what the medium is, that the effectiveness of it is the same. So even telephone counseling is as effective as face-to-face counseling.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Interesting. And yeah. For yourself as a psychologist. Psychologist, I've said that right, hey?

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Yes, yep. Psychologist. Yeah. I'm not I'm not a doctor, I'm not a psychiatrist. Can I do that? Psychiatrist, that's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Good, good, good. Do you find it's easier to counsel people when you can see their physical cues, how they're sitting in the chair, what they're doing with their eyes, that sort of stuff, or is it completely the same for you?

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Uh, it's different, but one's not better, I don't think. There's a slight difference in the type of therapies that you do online versus face-to-face. And it's just it's a different relationship, but I wouldn't say that one is stronger. I haven't thought about that too deeply for a while, but there's pros and cons of eat and being able to share screens, because I'm a very skills-based practitioner, so I've got lots of framework, worksheets, we're doing stuff because I mean talking about things helped to shift how we view it and change the way that we relate to what's happened. But ultimately, we should be teaching skills in therapy as well. And so the skills-based stuff I find translates a lot better to doing it via video conferencing. And sometimes I I wish that I had that technology in the counseling room. Yeah. Just because sometimes it can be a bit easier.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Well, yeah, you want to help people without creating a dependency. You want them to have tools in the tool belt to be able to help themselves and manage these situations.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

And I mean, the whole goal is so that you never see that person again. And at the end of therapy, it's a weird kind of awkwardness where you're like, I hope I don't see you again. I actually bummed into an ex-client recently who said he gave me a big hug and he's like, It's been really great not seeing you. That's adorable.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

It is a that's a it is a lovely relationship when you can see people and they're they're grateful for what you've given them without having to come back over and over again. Hey.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

That's it, yeah. I mean, that said, I mean, there's some clients that you just have for years and years because they like it and they want to. But ethically, the goal is to terminate services as soon as reasonably practicable so that we're not taking advantage of people and just charging them for coming in and having a chat about their life.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

And I suppose that comes hand in hand with people having the the skills and the tools and the tool belt to be able to assess when they need to see someone and when they can self-regulate, essentially. Hey.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

That's it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

So it's interesting at a club level. I I don't know if it's a QRL thing or an NRL thing, but there's support squad. So there's a few of us doing our support squad accreditation at the moment. We wear purple shirts and we basically triage mental health stuff. Yeah. But they rolled it out a few years ago and went really hard with it. And people in Clubland were thinking they were counselors and probably going too far with the level of support they were trying to provide and maybe doing things outside of their wheelhouse. So they pulled it back in, they've revamped it and they're just rolling it back out now. But it's gonna very much be a bit of mental health first aid training, and and we triage things at a club level and then have the resources to to pass people on to get the right help if they need to see someone or need to speak to wifeline or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Yeah, so an early intervention model, really, like let's pick up on the signs as soon as possible and connect you with support.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

Yeah, definitely. Because look, you you don't want, yeah, you don't want a salesperson trying to fix your plumbing at home or or or a baker trying to be a psychologist. Yeah, it's horses for courses as far as sort of skill set goes, but a general sort of understanding and some framework makes a massive difference.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Absolutely. Yep. And I think it's important that we have processes like this, like that we're increasing the mental health literacy of people in our community so that everyone benefits from that. And I think that means accepting a little bit of risk, like that you will have people who don't have kind of the qualifications behind them, but they're the first port of call. You can't relate to someone and you don't see them as similar to you in some way, it's really hard to have a confronting conversation about what's going on for you. So having those, like lowering the barriers to help seeking by upskilling people who we see in everyday life, I think is really important because it's not going to be some psychologist in a counseling room who notices if someone's unwell, like you guys notice it in each other. And if you feel confident having that conversation, we know that that's what predicts help seeking. It's not knowledge of mental health, but it's your confidence to have difficult conversations and anyone can benefit from that.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

Yeah, there's a lot of power in a quick check-in, a phone call, a text message, going out of your way to take someone a coffee if you know they're doing it hard or the are you okay? Just physically asking.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Yep, can make the world of difference. What I'm gonna add to that though is if you're gonna ask if someone's okay and they're not, you need to do something with that. I had an experience where I did it did work for a clinical psychologist who asked me if I was okay and I was just starting the relationship breakdown process, separating from my partner of 14 years. And he called me and said, Are you okay? And I basically bit his head off. I'm like, I don't have I don't know why you're calling me. Haven't heard from you in ages. Actually, things are pretty shit. And I was quite rude to him and I hung up and I'm like, that was not okay. And I sent him a message saying, I'm really sorry about how I spoke to you, but here's what's going on for me. I'm to go overseas and I'm I'm hoping I come back with a better headspace. And then crickets.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Yeah, well, what was the outcome? Like, what would you have liked to have happened in that situation?

SPEAKER_00 22:25

I would have liked for him to come back about a month later and said, Hey, things were pretty tough. Just checking in to see how whether or not they settled. But the lack of follow-up from it, I wouldn't have noticed if he didn't call. But he's called, he's asked the question, I've said no, and then nothing. And so it's I mean, it's not an important example, but if someone is not okay, we need to think about what do we need to do about that. And even if we're just checking in at appropriate intervals, you don't have to fix their problems, you don't have to make sure that they're getting support. But just saying, I see that you're suffering and I care for you, I think is is quite a powerful process in itself.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Yeah, just I suppose acknowledging it and the effort to reach out and show them that you care.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Yeah, yeah. You know, and there's this beautiful Brene Brown short about the difference between sympathy and empathy. And she's got this line in it that says, when someone's down in a deep dark hole, like saying at least it's not as bad as is not helpful, but you get down in the hole and you say, I don't know what to say about that, but I'm just so glad you told me. I think that that's just such a nice way when you don't know what the fuck to say to someone. Like I really don't know what to say about that. I'm just so glad you told me. Hmm. Anyway, that's my soapbox.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

No, no, I can completely understand. It it made me think in when players get injured and we everyone checks in on them and you sort of love bomb them when it first happens and everyone goes out of their way to to get around them, and then sometimes it doesn't happen. Like sometimes it just doesn't continue, and you find out after the fact that they've been doing it tough and they feel like no one's reached out to them. Not when it was ever an intentional thing, but I've certainly had that a couple of times over the last few years that in retrospect I've looked back and gone, I should have just sent a text message or should have dropped around to see him, see her, whoever it was, just to make sure that they know we care.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Yeah, that's it. And what can they participate in that may not be training and stuff, but how can you keep them involved so they still feel like part of the team?

SPEAKER_02 24:32

And have you found have you worked on practices like that at a at an NRL level? Is there anything that the injured squad does to manage these sort of things or mentorship with younger players, with senior players, any any of that sort of stuff buddying up or anything?

SPEAKER_00 24:48

Yeah, I I don't know. I don't have visibility of that. You know, I've worked with some players who've had some massive injuries. And my sense is that there's not a a strategic approach from a mental health perspective. But all because I'm not aware of it doesn't mean it's not happening. But I think it's a place where for whether it's a workplace or it's a sports team, like once the crisis is past, I do think injured players do get forgotten. And one of the challenges is when playing sport is such a big part of their identity. The problem usually isn't when the injury first happens, but it's recovery. And they start to go back, but they're scared about getting injured again. And what does that mean for their career? And I've noticed that the problems tend to be not at the start, but kind of six months in, 12 months in.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

In the recovery process or once you're in the world. In the recovery process.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Yeah. Often there's like being a bit gun shy once they get back on the field, and that's entirely reasonable because people get injured playing contact sports. So that's not an irrational fear. But yeah, I mean, those those really long injuries, particularly when it's a a recurring injury, the longer people are off, kind of the worse their headspace gets. And it's almost a linear relationship.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

It's also a tricky dynamic, too, because a lot of people pride themselves on turning up for their teammates, yeah, not letting anyone down and those sort of things. So if you're if you're battling with coming back from an injury and being a bit gun shy, like you said, but it's an identity piece that you turn up in a certain way, that's uh your dynamic to handle. Hey.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

That's it. Yeah. And usually like people cope by doing things that they love, like playing sport, being around their mates, going to work, not that they necessarily love that, but we cope quite well by having regular employment that we find. And when all of that stuff gets taken away, like the coping resources get removed through those injuries sometimes as well, because you can't exercise, you're not hanging out with your mates, you're not doing something that's purposeful. You know, it can really mess with your headspace.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

And I suppose from a park footy point of view, like we've got basic insurance with uh with a QRL. And I at a senior footy sense anyway, I always encourage the boys and girls to get some income protection, look into their super, do that sort of stuff just for peace of mind and security. It's a hard topic to sell to them though. Not many get involved with that. That do you find that there's um have you done a lot with amateur sort of park footy stuff, or is it mainly been at an elite sort of level?

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Not a lot with club level stuff, no. Ironically, I'm trying to develop a bit more of a network with club footy in Newcastle. I mean, I've been to a couple of clubs and just offered some free talks, and the culture's not quite there yet with mental health, which is a little bit interesting.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

That is interesting. Yeah, look, I I can't speak for all the clubs across the sunny coast, but I I know it's a massive focus for us. Hence, you're coming up next week, and we're so excited and appreciative of of that, and uh especially the relationship with Ant, who's an amazing person and amazing resource at the club, too. But the stigma, certainly from my playing days, like I stopped playing probably in 2018. The stigma's completely changed, I feel, even in that period of time. And the openness and the vulnerability, but I'm not sure if that's an across the board thing or or just something that we're passionate and trying to push at our end. But the more they get on board and and accept it and adopt these, well, I it's probably not even yeah, I suppose principles, just it's life stuff, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Yeah, well, and I think it has to be kind of both top-down and bottom-up stuff. Like, so I see when any kind of structure, workplace sports team, has got leaders who are on board with it and they're pushing it from the top down, as well as a receptive audience, like you've got the bottom-up effect, that works really well. And if one of those sides isn't coming to the party, then it it tends to stall. And I I tend to think that the younger people are all over it, and what we're dealing with is kind of that very conservative, stoic kind of approach to mental health that it's good for other people, but not for me. And I think that comes through in in how clubs go about their business. But I don't know, like I had a young player bring his mate into a therapy session recently because his mate dropped him off and he's like, I don't want him to wait in the car. Do you mind if he comes in and sits in with us? That's just delightful from you know, 16-year-old boy playing footy. It really speaks to like the openness and vulnerability and just a willingness to to go through these kind of processes.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Yeah, it's beautiful. And look, it says a lot to the relationship between those two guys. So there was enough comfort and respect there to do it.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

It was adorable.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

I find sometimes you just gotta not say too much. It's just lending an ear and holding space for people is what they need. Yeah, I I find we're in this crazy sped up world and a lot of people are just waiting for their turn to talk rather than listening. Hey.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Yeah, and it's often like when we're talking about mental health, being able to actively listen to what someone's saying is sometimes all we need to do.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Definitely. I I really love the when you pop up next week that the focus is going to be on resilience, confidence, emotional strength of young athletes, and it's gonna be directed towards the athletes themselves and the parent group. Because, like you were saying, top down, bottom up, if we're not engaging with the parents of our junior players in the right way, then we're probably missing a massive trick. So I'm really grateful that that you're coming up to do this with us, hey, and hopefully we've packed the clubhouse out with lots and lots of people to hear you talk.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

I hope so. Yeah, give me an audience, I love it. But I mean, one of my passions is about de-institutionalizing mental health. So that's a big part of it. About how do we build that mental health literacy? And sport is such a great kind of medium in order to do that, to learn some of the psychological skills that are going to set us up for life. And it it really is kind of increasing the willingness of the young athlete to tolerate the psychological discomfort, but also working on the parents to increase their capacity to tolerate their kids' discomfort. Because a big part of what I'm seeing of what gets in the way of resilience is life is too easy for the child, and sometimes they got to fail. And that part of how we develop resilience. And so a big part of the talk is gonna be around where are the appropriate moments for parents to step back so that the young person succeed or fail on their own merits.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Yeah, definitely. It's a funny dynamic. Like I would never, I've got four kids, Mel. So I would never want my children to feel like I fight their battles for them all the time or I speak on their behalf or that they can't be open and honest with me. So but makes it reflect it, it's a an interesting topic that'll be really thought-provoking for the people in the room.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

I hope so. If we can have a conversation about what we think about these ideas, that a great outcome. Because no one's perfect, no parenting's perfect, no child's perfect. But I think if we can lean into the imperfections, that that's a great opportunity to learn about resilience processes.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Yeah, definitely. Because no one's got the perfect family. No one's got the you know the the family you see on TV, on old soap operas and stuff like that. Yeah, everyone's everyone's family's chaos. They've all got weird stuff going on, they've all got it's some unique brand of crazy, you know. That's just as human beings, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 32:33

That's it. I mean, what's really surprising is that we get along with each other as often as we do, you know. Not that we have conflict, but we have such long periods of getting along. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Definitely. Do you hold on to some really close relationships from your time in the ADF?

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Yes. Like even my ex-husband, we met at Kapuka, the recruit training battalion, and he's still my battle buddy, you know, he's my best mate still. And I've got a girlfriend who was also at Kapuka, she's a ex-army psychologist, seeing her this weekend and next weekend, actually. So yeah, you've got the people that you'd lay down in traffic for, that they're family, just full stop, their family.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Yeah, yeah, you you get the same sort of thing in sporting teams too. The the brothers and sisters that you you might not see for 10 years, 20 years, bump into them and it's like you've yeah, you've saw each other yesterday. Yeah. So do you think that comes from doing hard stuff together? Doing emotionally and physically difficult things together, oh yeah. Which galvanizes the relationship.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

I mean, it it is trauma bonding. No doubt about that. But when you suffer together, like you do, you you really do build a closeness that's hard to to break and hard to put into words just how you feel about that person because they're just family. Um it's one of the things that I miss about sport. Like I've got bad knees, I'm going in for surgery this year to have a bit of a procedure on them. So I haven't been able to play sport for years, and I crossfit and it's not quite the same. And I do miss the camaraderie that comes from winning and losing with a bunch of mates.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

It seems I I haven't got super involved in the CrossFit scene. Is that where you met Ant, actually?

SPEAKER_00 34:19

So no, so Ant and I did a bit of work for the same employer, basically. We presented at a conference together at different times, but it the conference was for a financial services firm, Bell Partners, who have a real focus on performance. And so they had Brett White, who was the assistant coach at the Titans at the time. He's now down here in Newcastle. Ant presented. There was another XSF guy who did something on breath work. So yeah, I met him through that network and have just stayed in contact because he's he's got so many great experiences and skills and you know, on the same page when it comes to mindset.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

He's um he's a one-of-a-kind ant. Got a shout out to Yel too. Do you know Yel, Yelena Ant's partner?

SPEAKER_00 35:07

No, no, I haven't met her.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

Next weekend?

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Yeah. No, no, no. So I didn't mean to put you on the spot. No, so yeah, obviously you'd be up here and and stuff like that. Are you are you doing Trek for Vettes or anything like that while you're up here with the guys?

SPEAKER_00 35:21

No, I'm coming up to have an Anzac Day with my army psych mate who I mentioned. So she's at Mountain Creek. So we've got a bit of a crew coming together. I think there's eight of us, but Carla and I are the only ex-service members in the group. Uh we'll just go to the Maruchi Dor RSL and just have a good time.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

Sounds good. Bit of RR. Try and get that balance right.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

Amazing. I don't want to spoil the seminar next week. So I don't want to cover off too many topics that you'll be doing with the the crew in the room. Cause look, I'm I'm hoping that a lot of the people that'll be coming along to watch you next week will have a listen to this beforehand and it'll help inspire a few more people to come along and experience your event, Mel.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

So wonderful. Yeah. The more the merrier, I think, with these kinds of things.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

Definitely. And yeah, let's just let's keep the conversation going and let's be vulnerable and talk about things that might be a little bit uncomfortable, but that's it. Get us to where where we need to be.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

That's how we grow, isn't it? By being a little bit uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

That's it. Well, thank you for your time. Is there any parting stories, wisdom, anything you want to share with the listeners before we wrap it up?

SPEAKER_00 36:34

It's a very broad question. Just if you're not sure if you should come along, come along. At the very least, like you'll get one or two pieces of information that will help you in how you support other people. Because even though we're focusing on youths and resilience for young athletes, the stuff that we're talking about is good for everyone. And I often ask people to have two hats on with this kind of stuff. Like, what can I use that I can support others with, but what can I take away from myself? So I think it's just a good professional development activity, you know, and where do we learn stuff like this, except for great opportunities like what your club is putting on?

SPEAKER_02 37:14

And massive credit to you for donating in time to do this too, because it's not often that a speaker of your pedigree will come and do this at a park footy club just for the the good of being a great person. So we really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

It's my pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

Is there avenues for people to reach out to you or work with you after the next Friday if they're interested?

SPEAKER_00 37:37

Absolutely. Yeah. So I will have a bit of my branding up mindset training where we deliver services in person or online, you know, and we help businesses to manage the impact of mental health so that people are healthier and happier at work. So, yes, there'll be some subtle plugs probably for my business next Friday, but definitely the opportunity to work together. Any chance to come up to Queensland? I love to visit, so give me the excuse.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

Moose is not a bad spot to come up and catch up with a few people or the sunny coast generally.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

It's not. It's not at all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

Well, Mel, thank you again. I actually I'm not going to get a chance to meet you next week because I'm over in PG. I'm going over to do Kakonga for Anzac Day. But I look forward toward to meeting you sometime down the track, and I'm sure our paths will cross sometime soon.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Yeah, I'm sure this won't be an isolated event.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Awesome. All right.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Wonderful. Thanks, Liam.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

Thanks, Mel. Have a great night.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Thank you. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

Bye.